Natalie Gunn is a queer and disabled feminist philosopher and futurist change agent on a mission to have risky conversations about ideology, identity, and innovation. Our co-founder Kt was able to have one of such conversations with this total trailblazer, where they touch on composers, compassion, coming out and so much more.
The first line of your bio says so much, and the emphasis on conversation seems quite intentional. What do you believe having these risky conversations can achieve?
I think we all need to practice saying out loud what we believe and why. To help bring about change, we need to learn how to negotiate for different outcomes, to voice our values.
I am drawn to speak about these risky topics because of the unique intersection I’ve lived between them. Beliefs and ethics are the bigger upstream topics at the heart of my intention, and I believe wholeheartedly that the exchange of ideas and empathy will help us to culturally evolve, to move through the gridlock and dysfunction we see in families, communities, and governments.
“As my story has unfolded, I can reflect and see how yes, learning from books, shows, podcasts and other media was influential — but the real impetus for change came from brave conversations with friends, caregivers, strangers, lovers, family, mentors and therapists.”
My choice to leave the Mormon church and rewire my mind and heart, to come out and leave my marriage, to accept my broken body and leave my fifteen-year profession, to retool myself for a new career, to surrender to love… these changes didn’t happen in a vacuum. As my story has unfolded, I can reflect and see how yes, learning from books, shows, podcasts and other media was influential—but the real impetus for change came from brave conversations with friends, caregivers, strangers, lovers, family, mentors and therapists.
There’s a richness of meaning in the music of speaking that is above and beyond the written word and other one-way communications that perpetuate the siloes we occupy. It’s healthy to regularly challenge your assumptions and preconceptions, to check yourself and uncover meaning you could not have otherwise imagined.
“It’s healthy to regularly challenge your assumptions and preconceptions, to check yourself and uncover meaning you could not have otherwise imagined.”
I believe that curiosity and compassion live inside conversation, and these are skills people can exercise and grow. I’m talking about open listening, checking for understanding, using metaphor and humor, and the beautiful art of inquiry. This is also one reason I love Trail Guides!
Your trail is a beautiful, powerful reflection on our relationships with our own identities. How does it feel to share your story on your terms? What might you say to people going through a shift in their identity right now?
First, I’d say that in the grand scheme of things, you are not alone—even though sometimes you may actually be quite alone. Hang in there! Seek out others who have the experience to support your discovery. Be brave and ask for connection and help. Identity is fluid, so avoid rigid logic that demands you lock in.
The more I interacted with others like me (read here: queer people, ex-Mormons, career changers, divorced people, working artists, disabled people), the more I was able to recognize and dispel my own fears and misconceptions and step into my authenticity with pride. This is why community is paramount.
When I came out, for example, I ran to the library to read all I could about queer history and culture. It felt like drinking from a fountain, I was so thirsty to learn about the lives of those who were erased from the patriarchal histories we were taught in school.
“It felt like drinking from a fountain, I was so thirsty to learn about the lives of those who were erased from the patriarchal histories we were taught in school.”
A shift in identity requires processing and can be painful and ongoing, depending on your environment and journey. For me, my process was greatly aided by talk therapy, writing perspectives/journaling, plant medicine, telling my stories, composing music and poetry, and of course engaging in risky conversations.
I appreciate that you shared early milestones around being discouraged from your area of study, student loans and all the jobs before your “career” started. These are great examples of how rich our experiences are when we go outside the resume. What is something that you gained from these experiences that make you good at your job today? And what would Natalie of the babysitting empire era think if she met opera-singer-turned-product-manager Nat of today?
My rich experiences beyond my resume have shaped my brain and body entirely. What someone employs me to do may be narrowly defined, but they’re going to get all of me no matter what. I don’t thrive in limiting environments. This is why I’m attracted to innovation and leadership. In these realms, there are no rigid rules, imagination is valued, and bravery to fail and try again is required. I am unafraid of the future and am propelled by an inherent optimism.
LinkedIn and other two-dimensional platforms are so constrained in what they can convey about complex humans. Someone once told me that a resume is a marketing document. It tells a particular story for a specific opportunity; it is not a comprehensive showcase of who you are or what you’re capable of. That helped me draw some healthy boundaries in my professional messaging.
“Little Nat was scrappy and entrepreneurial, a survivor. I had a headstrong belief in my talents and rights, and a knee-jerk reaction to anything that tried to hold me back. “
Little Nat was scrappy and entrepreneurial, a survivor. I had a headstrong belief in my talents and rights, and a knee-jerk reaction to anything that tried to hold me back. As the third of six kids, a competitive athlete and artist, I was acutely aware of navigating conflict and constantly crafting games and strategy in the name of harmony and beautiful outcomes. This helps me today in my work as a product manager in the growth office. I think if little Nat from 1988 met me today, she’d be both confounded and overjoyed.
I’m dying to talk music and poetry with you! What artists (of any medium!) are you loving right now and why?
Yes, let’s! I’m a huge fan of spoken word artist Andrea Gibson. I first experienced their work when I came out in my early thirties. Sitting in an all-ages coffee shop performance one dark, rainy night in Portland, I wept and my heart burst. I started writing poems again right then. I also love the poems of Natalie Diaz for so many reasons. Her work is unique and gorgeously plaintive. They are consummate teachers of the craft of words and emotions. Theirs is an activism that feels relevant for our times.
I most love listening to electronic and house music, good beats that move my body. Especially Little Dragon, Cut Copy, Röyksopp, Robyn, Christine and the Queens, Booka Shadev, TOKiMONSTA and Sofia Kourtesis. Even though I can’t cut a rug like I used to, I dance every day in my own way.
If I’m in the mood for relaxing, I reach for minimalists like Philip Glass or Satie, and for focus I prefer the predictable structure of Bach, Vivaldi, and Mozart. For a moody candlelit bath, I’ll turn on Chopin, Fauré or Debussy.
Currently, you’re working on a book about your artistic processing and wayfinding journey. Is this project a continuation of your mission for important conversation? What are your hopes for involving others in the birthing and sharing of your story…and how can we support you?
Yes, for sure! I’d be delighted to speak to people across all mediums: interviews, podcasts, panels.
I hope to expand people’s minds by sharing my lessons learned, to challenge people to release old ways of thinking and embrace new paradigms for truth and culture. That sounds lofty, doesn’t it? I’m okay with that. It’s a perfect reflection of who I am, back to the identity part. I must try to do this, and whatever comes of it I am ready for.
“Everything I am and do is a questioning of patriarchy, and I intend to continue breaking that down. Eventually, I can imagine combining many people’s brave talents to innovate, to create new genres and learning communities centered in healing and growing.”
How can you support me? Everything I am and do is a questioning of patriarchy, and I intend to continue breaking that down. Eventually, I can imagine combining many people’s brave talents to innovate, to create new genres and learning communities centered in healing and growing.
I want to help others recognize and leverage the plasticity of their brains and neurology of their bodies — these ever-evolving perceptions of reality that we share. I want to amplify change narratives that influence our moral arc toward a better future by illuminating the roots of ideological beliefs that remain in today’s global society, business, and environment so we can actively change away from their dominance.
This requires language and drawn conceptual models, self-awareness, and deft reasoning to untie ancient systems of logic that no longer serve us in 2021. I want to help bring forward these kinds of conversations to help people dare to innovate. I’m talking about cultural innovation.
- I am exploring publishing options and would love to learn from your publishing experience or connect with your network and sponsoring resources.
- If you are someone like me who has lived through transformation (on multiple levels), let’s connect and discover how we can support each other’s work, collaborate, or innovate to expand insights and impact.
- If you are part of a learning community or audience that wants to talk about identity, ideology and innovation, please reach out.
Powerful stuff, right? Connect with Nat to continue the conversation and follow her journey from here.